I dont agree with all the conclusions of your research but the research is a gift to all of us. Many years later in his interview with Dehlin, Brent Metcalfe tells of a conversation that he had with Mark E. Peterson where he plainly admits he was lying in his book. What was the arrangement and the special business relationship Steven had with the Church in this regard? Yes, thats the book, though the volume I perused was the first (1816) edition published in Portsmouth, NH. The October 1985 bombings that killed two individuals and severely injured another was initially assumed to be related to a financial business. Im not saying you need to have spiritual experiences to validate your work by any means if the facts are facts, but a higher power confirmation always helps. I thought your essay in New Approaches was excellent, and certainly complicates traditional understandings of the Book of Mormon; you obviously dont believe the BoM is historical in any way, but Id also guess you would acknowledge the impressive complexity of it. But I feel that sometimes secular scholars, perhaps in an effort to be diplomatic, perhaps for other reasons, underestimate and understate the inevitability of open conflict with a religious tradition they study. Iowa's Brent Metcalf wrestles with Iowa State's Mitch Mueller during their 149 pound match Friday, March 19, 2010 in the quarterfinal round of the 2010 NCAA Division 1 Wrestling Championships at . It didnt have anything to do with church history or anything you would read in something like the CES letter, but was instead a realization and acceptance that its not me, its the church followed by a complete collapse of everything. That was fascinating, thank you. I devoutly attended BYU in the mid 70s. Do you know if the church took down the names of all the 7th East Press people? This one is up there with the best. I think that the LDS churchs main competitor in the marketplace of ideas is not a bigger tent more liberal church, its Agnosticism/atheism. Save my name, email, and website in this browser for the next time I comment. It was soul-crushing, Brent said. Sandra was criticized by some Mormon Stories listeners for not being as critical of Christianity as she was of Mormonism. Its likely that our paths could have crossed. Ive always wondered if my church record was blighted in some way. Yes! Two more parts (3 & 4) to come. Were they watching us? I happened to not do soat least, not yet. In Part 4, Brent examines some of the issues surrounding traditional approaches to the Book of Mormon. By accepting all cookies, you agree to our use of cookies to deliver and maintain our services and site, improve the quality of Reddit, personalize Reddit content and advertising, and measure the effectiveness of advertising. What has been the ramifications to your excommunication among other family members? What about your book did the church find cause to excommunicate you? What would you say are the most significant developments in the critiques of the church in the past 20 years that didnt exist beforehand? So sorry Maxine! And I went through a very long phase of just wishing that I had never been born. Im sure there is a very good possibility that COB personnel would have been more suspect of Jerald, and any information he offered, than Hofmann. Reminds me of the Mormon interpretation of Amos 3:7 (Surely the Lord God will do nothing, but he revealeth his secret unto his servants the prophets). In episode #276 of The Jimmy Rex Show, we sit down with a key role in Netflix Documentary Murder Among The Mormons, Brent Metcalfe.Visit and Listen to more. Daniel Kahneman speaks in terms of efficient Thinking Fast biases that unconsciously deploy the WYSIATI (What-You-See-Is-All-There-Is) heuristic, which has proved itself sufficiently satisficing for selection. Growing up in the Eleventh Ward, you seemed very different than the Terry, Larry and Scott group. What academic qualifications does Mr. Metcalfe have to authoritatively speak on subjects like the historicity of the Book of Abraham? Reply. Indeed, the trivial matters that many theists assert as claiming the attention of God (even as hell is meanwhilebreaking loose) is absurd evidently too absurd for many to even grasp. Please let us know. None of this means that believing scholars and secular scholars have to treat each other poorly or that we cannot respect (even in the midst of serious disagreement) each others work. Would that fit the time frame the book is given in? Or at least, Lets Take this Puppy Down.. And how was it working with Mr. Ritner? My question to Brent is during or after authoring/editing New Approaches to the Book Mormon, did he have other or similar spiritual experiences that confirmed the historical facts (which may be viewed as counter experiences to those earlier in the church)? The 7th East Press is one of the great university newspapers; truly the stars aligned when this group got together. [9] Metcalfe became a suspect himself at one point in time. Anyone know what that is and where I can find out more? Im pretty sure I was standing next to Maxine. Brent_Metcalfe 7 yr. ago To clarify 4blockhead's list. He was basically threatening his entire existence. (paraphrased and likely not the actual quote from Murder Among the Mormons, Netflix documentary). going back ten+ years when we first interacted online (message boards), but this interview gave me many more insights. Hofmann really believed he could pull it all off, and maybe it wasnt just the police who thwarted his scheme? Brent Lee Metcalfe is an independent researcher and writer of the Latter Day Saint Movement. It seems there is some serious self deception that is required to work around these problems that are creating riffs in families, as well as individual conflicts of spiritual dissonance for good members and leaders of the church. To those people like me, however, who find themselves on the butt end of his speeches, may consider him to come across as aggressive, brash and unsympathetic. Charles, I dont think I threw the baby out with the bathwater since my examination of the Hebrew and Christian scriptures resulted in the same intellectual concerns that I had with LDS scriptural extensions. Great interview. Unfortunately, much of the middle portion of the interview was lost due to technical issues that were only discovered after we completed the interview. Lex, the recommendation by Andrew is a good resource. brent metcalfe excommunicated. I heard this in contrast to the snippet of Steve Christensens wife on a news show asking about what Steve Christensen was threatening Mark Hofmann with if he didnt produce the McClellin collection where she stated something along the lines of He was going to go to the police and have him arrested. These other people that had experiences dont seem to have a similar backlash evident. Reddit and its partners use cookies and similar technologies to provide you with a better experience. I clearly remember the frustration in her voice. Sorry for my language, Im not a native English speaker and there is a limit to what I can express in English. but he threw out the baby with the bath water as if the success of Christianity rode on the success of Joseph Smith.. My life has been enriched by theinquiries those books catalyzed. Listening now- so far, I like the new intro lots! It shows how establishment Apologists from FAIR and Interpreter and the rest of the former FARMS crew only care about your academic achievements even if you actually do do serious research on the Book of Abraham. pigella miraculous ladybug power. Talk about ADD. I teared up with Brent during that part. So my question is, what if the effort for the book of Abraham was an attempt by JS and his close friends to deliver an esoteric masterpiece. He also talks about his early forays into Mormon studies. But Ashment, a fellow member of the church, said he was disgusted with those who publicly protested the church action at a rally for Murphy on Salt Lake City's Main Street plaza Sunday night. Historian Brent Metcalfe says he was fired by the church out of fear he'd publish something they didn't like. I have never heard of the description that its like talking to someone in the airport on their cell phone, with all the background noise. Those mind-opening essays impacted my life in positive and powerful ways. Did John take the tapes home to show his wife? this was fascinating, and I havent got to part 2 yet! Broad topics include my excommunication plus BoMor and BoAbr research. Near the end of a presentation you gave for the ExMormon Foundation, you said something to the effect of: People ask me how Joseph Smith wrote the Book of Mormon, how he pulled it off, how it all came about. [9] Metcalfe and the police were afraid Metcalfe might be a future target he went into hiding. I discovered New Approaches to the Book of Mormon back in 2002-03. "[7] William J. Hamblin responded specifically to an article by Metcalfe. [9], As it began to be clearer that Hofmann was counterfeiting documents, Christensen and Kathy Sheets were murdered in an separate bombs created by Hofmann, and Hofmann himself was injured when a later bomb he created inadvertently exploded. This was interesting all around. Why didnt the church just pay for their own documents? Learn how your comment data is processed. We also talk about the concept of translation, Joseph Smiths views on his translations, the traditional apologetic responses concerning the Book of Abraham (Hugh Nibley, John Gee, and Kerry Muhlestein), as well as the LDS Churchs recent essay on the Book of Abraham. Brent, thanks so much for sharing your tender moments as well. Oh. John Are you done interviewing faithful members or promoting faithful stories? Released: Sep 13, 2014 Format: Podcast episode I understand the church spent large sums of money on BYU professors and private research to bolster the Book of Mormon claims through archeological discoveries.unfortunately they have not found what they had hoped for. [9] When it became rumored that Metcalfe had lost his belief in the historical claims of the LDS Church, Christensen terminated the project and fired Metcalfe. This negative sentiment is perhaps made up for by Hofmann's victims. After that day I moved to the back of the class and felt like the only straight A student retard at BYU. Hibbard later had a dream in which he again. Brent Metcalfe is definitely one of my favorite interviewees ever on Mormon Stories Podcast. Growing up I only had positive interactions with his beautiful wife and kids. She was excommunicated for it and it was ironic that her uncle, David O'McKay, was a member of the twelve apostles at the time (and later became Prophet.) What are your views on how the Book of Mormon was created? Should have added one more minor thing. Let me clarify. I was with one of his relatives the day he was charged with the bombings, and she was totally shocked & absolutely certain he had nothing to do with it. [7] The LDS Church fired Brigham Young University professor David Wright for his contribution to the volume, and excommunicated both Wright and Metcalfe shortly thereafter. Awesome. As a personal friend and research assistant for both Steve Christensen and Mark Hofmann, Brent Metcalfe watched the whole episode unfold right before his eyes. Thank you Brandt for sharing your experiences. Yes! There is a newish movement who rejects that the book of mormon ever occurred in South America. I felt like somehow I was responsible for what had happened. John in wonderfully rare form in this oneI love it! As a personal friend and research assistant for both Steve Christensen and Mark Hofmann, Brent Metcalfe watched the whole episode unfold right before his eyes. We have to learn to get along and improve our conditions wherever we are and it is a much more difficult task because of all the varied belief systems prevalent in the world. Other early-19thC religionists were even more literal in their descriptions. Roger that. Coming from similar backgrounds, Mark and Brent subsequently began working together on finding and authenticating documents, which eventually turned their relationship into a friendship. Hi, was wondering if Brent is still available to respond to my train of thought above? Mark Metcalfe Project Manager - Heavy Lift Division at Western Mechanical Electrical Millwright Services Ltd. Kitchener, Ontario, Canada 500+ connections The triplet Egyptian Alphabet manuscripts and the bound Grammar and Alphabet of the Egyptian Language also elaborate the Katumin narrative. Also, the rest of your experience is so totally mind-blowing-interesting. dave davies wife. A man with boldness of speech, and is often cited by members as one of the favourite apostles to hear from. In fact, it may just be possible that I stood right next to Brent during our official kick off meeting, when Elbert invited his brother Lyle to give us all a magic show. Im glad the church and BYU tried and I dont blame them for making the attempt to shore up the Book of Mormon. I hope to move on some day as well. Brent Metcalf is entering his fifth season as a full-time assistant coach on Iowa State's wrestling staff. An anonymous source reported that Roy Doxey, then the director of church correlation, wanted to know about the papers Metcalfe was studying at the Church Historical Library, which were on Elias Smith and others. Isnt that a dangerous and at least weak and anything goes approach, especially for fanatical groups? But I have a question for Brent. After admiring the glory of the Lamb for some time, I began to think of the situation my body was in, and rose up to return home. But this podcast is filled with way more than you will get in the book or documentary. Its a pity Joseph Smith couldnt sit them all down for a good coming-to-Jesus admonishing. Notify me of follow-up comments by email. Really, such a great family. He also discusses the events leading up to, and including, his excommunication. Im sure this applies to other beliefs as well. As a Mormon History and Rare Document Researcher, Brent Metcalfe has unparalleled knowledge of the religion and its connections in Utah. Thanks to the both of you! Your account of why you didnt pursue a doctorate was extremely touching to me as I absolutely admire those that can do the tedium of historical research. african american gastroenterologist near me; district 36 lofts; how to turn off scan text on iphone 12 Afraid that Brent would go public with the contradictory information, the LDS church terminated him as a member. Im was left kind of hot but dry after hoping to hear about his drama with the church and its leaders.any chance of allowing closure for me here? Biography [ edit] As a prep wrestler, Metcalf went undefeated with a career record of 228-0, won four consecutive Michigan state titles, and earned six junior national titles. Ive struggled to understand the human mind in this regard. Some suggest that energy-conservation constraints favored our thoughts sliding along low-resistance neural ruts that include simple feel-good narratives. John, you asked for information about any of the Christensens. It instead discusses the fact that the LDS Church keeps some documents secret. hillside christian church staff/ brent metcalfe excommunicated Create a Word Cloud at Tagxedo.Com. Why didnt Mr. Metcalfe publish his long-anticipated book disproving the Book of Abraham? "The Mormon murders: A true story of greed, forgery, deceit, and death." The Gift of the Mormon Faith Crisis Podcast. The insight into the many corners of Mormonism important to us here was delicious. What is not to love about Johns revelation of your worthy biceps? We were not suppose to discuss the Temple, Blacks and Priesthood, and of course definitely not curtain parts of the church history such as polygamy and polyandry. He remains an enigma. When will the big book about the Egytian papers be out? Brent was ultimately excommunicated for editing/authoring this book. He is their emotional support and Sue's constant companion, her voice, advocate and her angel. Do you have any idea what his views are now about the church, what he did, etc.? So yes, Brent, please comment on this phenomenon. Unresolved: Release in which this issue/RFE will be addressed. Once you start to deconstruct Mormonism, the next step is Christianity, and then the existence of a god, or not There are plenty of stops along that road to hang your hat, but the fastest growing belief system around the existence of god, is atheism. Metcalfe believed that his firing was because of a few people in church leadership who perceived him as a threat, even though he viewed his own work as apologetic and not scholarly. I heard he had left the church soon after returning home. My faith failed me and that led to crisis. @John, thank you for all the hours you put in. Definitely one of my top 10 favorite stories on here. I believe Brent said he has the copy in his records.**. ), systematically undermining Church teachings on the law of chastity and the . Thanks again Brent for sharing a sketch of your life with us. :). But before Brent could truly move on, he had to deal with the emotional turmoil of knowing that he was associated with Mark Hofmann. It was stillbecause it all drove from the incredibility of the whole thing. What advice does Brent have for aspiring Mormon historians? funeral directors southend; penalty charge notice costs; johns manville headquarters address; Hello world! They have shown time and time again that that is all that matters to them. It was awful so stressful. Privacy Policy. document.getElementById( "ak_js_1" ).setAttribute( "value", ( new Date() ).getTime() ); This site uses Akismet to reduce spam. I shared this source with Mike Quinn when he was writing _Early Mormonism and the Magic World View_. In these two episodes we discuss: The aftermath of the Mark Hofmann bombings, and Brent's excommunication for his research into the Book of Mormon, and. Thank you for this interview. When discussing some of the details surrounding the Book of Abraham, he mentioned the Tale of Onidas and Kitumen. I have never heard of that before and cannot find anything about it. Ive always felt like crises of faith didnt quite describe my journey but Brent gave me the phrase that perfectly describes my experience. Salamander: The story of the Mormon forgery murders. January 15, 2015. Rude Dog Never fear! He was enthusiastic about scholars allegedly validating his translations through secular methods (e.g., Charles Anthon on the BoMor characters and Michael Chandlers anonymous scholars on the BoAbr papyri). Thanks for the great podcast. Brent did Jerald make an official overture to church leadership regarding Hofmann being a fraud? And if Christianity/Mormonism is *false*, then were being done a tremendous service in this falsification. Given that, do you think that Joseph Smith deliberately plotted, prepared, researched, drafted, re-drafted the book over several years, or did it flow spontaneously from his subconscious mind in ways even he didnt understand? Since you worked for Steven Christensen, could you shed any light on the main reason why Steven purchased documents from Hoffman was it just to donate documents to the church? Ron Priddis was my friend, and had recruited me to be a writer. In the highly anticipated follow up to our first interview, Brent Metcalfe continues his story. I can hardly wait for the rest! If I applied Vatican II to the full breadth of Catholicism, I clearly misspoke (Im not even sure why I would make such a sweeping claim, so I am a tad mystified). I was a writer for 7th East Press. Metcalfe is on the editorial board of the John Whitmer Historical Association. Thanks for this podcast! Quote: More recent studies conducted by Professor of Anthropology Richard B. Stamps, of the Michigan Historical Museum, indicate that the artifacts were made with contemporary tools. [9] According to Metcalfe, he had written a letter to LDS Church leader Gordon B. Hinckley, disputing the grounds for his termination. All this transpired in the 1980s, just around the time Mark Hofmann made his name in the community as a renowned book and document dealer. By rejecting non-essential cookies, Reddit may still use certain cookies to ensure the proper functionality of our platform. Is it paramount to understand all of these religious histories and come to terms with them or, Brant for people like you and me, would it be better to turn our talents toward uncovering and deciphering Gobekli Tepe, a stone temple complex built 12,000 years ago at the end of the last ice age in Turkey, built by the Watchers of the Book of Enoch and the Anunnaki gods of Sumerian tradition? I had a similar reaction to the section about ADD. Now, alas, Im left to figure out why I dont personally do more to address the real-life hell that is meanwhile breaking loose in the world, now that I understand also that no gods exist to help us. I went to BYU and graduated with honors but I did everything I could to get out of reading or to read beforehand what I could be asked to read out loud. My good friend Matt Christensen digitized the 7th East Press and was kind enough to allow Signature Books to make it available on their incredible digital library. If you were to interview Mark Hofmann, what would your top questions be? It is something that has fascinated me, and this Metcalfe interview did not disappoint!!! Whatever the reasons, thanks again for your research that revealed there was MTSTWIS (More-To-See-Than-What-I-Saw). [8] Personal life [ edit] Metcalfe is a native of New Zealand. They claim that it occurred here in the USA siting scriptures and other things Joseph smith said. Is there going to be a part 3? Looking around me, every object was changed, and a bright glory appeared on everything. As soon as we can! I found this podcast to be very fascinating. Metcalfe is on the editorial board of the John Whitmer Historical Association. Im definitely a fan. Perhaps she remembers me, the useless home teacher. This has to be one of my top 10 favorite Mormonstories podcasts. Again, Im not sure that you would disagree with any of this. If the Prophet cant see Hoffman as a fraud, why should anyone assume their Bishop/Stake president has any more ability in terms of divinely inspired discernment? The 7th East Press was a gem. This is one of the best MS interviews I have heard so far. You can have a PhD and still not have great knowledge. What scenario for the books origins have you constructed over your many years of study? I just discovered this on my own I bought every single issue of the 7th East Press, and was so disappointed that I missed picking up the final April Fools issue which appeared around campus after the edict banning it from being sold on campus. Steven Christensen (son of Mr. Mac), one of Mark Hofmanns victims. Over the years you just reason, that a faith shouldnt be that complicated. Im not excited anymore. Hinckley never responded, but was shortly thereafter offered the job by Christensen, which Metcalfe felt was orchestrated by Hinckley. I think that it speaks volumes about their powers of discernment and what they truly think about Joseph Smith. Without good research, ours is a heritage shallow in meaning. I thought Brents response to this question very touching and informative and dont see that his research should be discredited. I served a mission with the missionary mentioned by Brent. Well also talk about the recent history of BYUs Maxwell Institute and what he sees in its future and in the future of Mormon apologetics overall. What historical issues does he think are most worthy of exploration, and how would he suggest young aspiring researchers go about gathering and parsing primary and secondary sources? Brent, are you still working on a Book of Abraham book? But it has not always been that way or worked in his favor. Dont know who the nuts are that Church Security referred to, but Jerald Tanner probably expressed the most legitimate concerns. "Mark deceived everyone," Co-director Jared Hess told Deseret News. For one thing, you were damn good at martial arts. Brent Lee Metcalfe is an independent researcher and writer of the Latter Day Saint Movement. Brent did a marvelous job of creating a context by which these events took place. Brent, In Part 5, we explore the history surrounding Joseph Smith and the Book of Abraham(one of the primary scriptural texts for the LDS Church). Part 1 of the interview stuck much closer to home for me. Hamblin Methodological discussions have become commonplace in Mormon studies. The portion you quoted is an example of what I dub a conversion epiphany (as I mentioned in the podcast). I., **My question is if Brent could provide a copy of the parallels between Elias Snow and Joseph Smith that Wilford Paulson (former BYU professor)inserted into the book. About a year or so ago when I finally left the church I looked him up to get advice and catch up on old times. The look of Jesus on me removed the burden of my sins, while he spoke these words, Be faithful until death and this shall be thy place of rest. I never had seen Jesus Christ before, nor heard his voice, nor ever had a sense of his intercession at the right hand of God for me till now (Billy Hibbard, _Memoirs of the Life and Travels of B. Hibbard, Minister of the Gospel_ [New York: J. C. Totten, 1825], 23). And Im speaking as a believer- in the very traditional sense- in the Christian interpretation of the world. 52K views 2 years ago Iowa's Brent Metcalf took down Ohio State's Lance Palmer in a thrilling title bout at 149 pounds in the 2010 NCAA wrestling championships. This is the part Im most interested in: how would he suggest young aspiring researchers go about gathering and parsing primary and secondary sources?. Lance is a Gnostic priest and has written and spoken extensively on the Gnostic and esoteric flavor of Joseph Smiths writings. Brent Metcalf, who has been through personal tragedy, triumph and uncertainty can now call himself a national champion. I hope you consider doing this. Nicely done, John. Is having spiritual experiences while doing what some may view as critical research on the Book, when you know there may be opposing views to your work, grounds for also having these feelings? Cookie Notice :). Wow John, what an interview. So, so good. Long question, sorry ! I have heard that Mac Christianson financed the mission of one of Hofmanns sons. Joyce Skabelund October 9, 1938 January 10, 2023 Our mother, grandma, and friend, Joyce Roth Skabelund, 84, departed this life on 10 January 2023. I have question on the Book of Abraham. What an amazing life Brent! Why are they so adamant about excommunicating someone who has a different opinion than they do? Lex, you might be interested in the work of Lance Owens. [9][10] His father was the managing director of the Temple Department for the LDS Church. We were both greenies at the same time. Thank you Brent and John. Its the same adhominem from his whole establishment that shows how much they think they own the intellectual world. I am waiting patiently for part 3. Brent Metcalfe borrows the titles of a few works on literary and narrative theory and then concludes that such theory under mines the historical claims of the Book of Mormon. This podcast inspired me to read the book Mormon Murders. Since unit growth of the church is now in decline and growing slower than U.S. and world population growth, how do you see the future of the church and its doctrines? It would yield some satisfaction to me, if my misery can be a cause of happiness to others; but when I came to the place of prayer, had kneeled down, and closed my eyes, with my hands uplifted toward the heavens, I saw Jesus Christ at the right hand of God looking down upon me, and God the Father looking upon him. These scholars included Dan Vogel, Stan Larson, David P. Wright, and John Kunich. Ack! As coincidence would have it, a few months later I became her home teacher. A member of the LDS Church reports he was excommunicated for apostasy on February 2nd, 2013. Do you attend church anyplace else? Brent's review of challenges to traditional approaches to the Book of Mormon. I am so grateful I stumbled across them along with D. Michael Quinns books wow now 20 years ago. Brent provided a detailed account of the Mark Hoffman story with a perspective that we seldom hear. Unintended consequences here we come! Please, God, let this podcast inspire someone to produce a talk show called, Hot-tubbing with Mark Hoffman! Also, I appreciate you bringing up ADD. brent metcalfe excommunicated. The confessionals in the documentary of Hofmann's associates, such as Shannon Flynn, Brent Metcalf and George Throckmorton are captivating.
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