But whats the long term average? There have been several attempts by ballistics engineers to increase the wounding ability of a round. So for over a couple hundred years size mattered in stopping power, or say incapacitating an opponent. The Fora platform includes forum software by XenForo. Asking that question around gun owners is like bringing up religion or politics at a party. It depends where they get hit. My father was hit in the arm with a .50 bmg round during the Falklands war and it took his arm off from below the el I have been hand loading my rifle and pistol ammo since 1975. If it works for our troops no matter where it is made thats the one we want. He didnt get more than three feet from the bathroom. Also we are talking pistols. Mr. 15 -25 yards lol I can hit you in between the eyes with my co2 bb pistol. What do you think of the Shield or do you know anything about it? Doctors later determined that this round was not survivable. Blood poured out of his chest cavity, she wrote. However, it does suffer from the same issue as the .40s&w, and that is that its snappier in its recoil impulse. Because of the impracticality of training for headshots, this examination of handgun wounding relative to law enforcement use is focused upon torso wounds and the probable results. The past 45 years never needed more than one shot. It was by far the easiest serviced pistol in the field, go ahead and get the lighter frame lighter weight ceramic /plastic and all that junk its fine as long as youre in a urban environment. Keep in mind that fragmentation does sometimes occur, however, it cannot be relied upon. Have you ever saw the wound track from a .230 hst. My personal opinion is that the military has found that many recruits are unable to accurately fire the .45 and cannot manage the recoil. The deers shot with 9 ran and ran far compared to the short distance the 45 shot deer covered (100yds or less). This reasoning may not make sense to many of you, but it does to me. I am a classic ). Im 73 yoa. There is no substitute for experience. When someone has a weapon to defend themselves the adrenaline factor comes in play on both sides but the one with the tracing and experience should come out ok and most of the time the neighborhood thug doesnt have the training etc. Looking back at the stories we told, and which stuck with us, during an eventful year. This translates to a simple formula for shooting success: practice, practice, practice. Its actually much more simple than most would like to think. I am old school. So logically the 45 is more effective at stopping Humans, than the 9mm, data from lethal census. 0.22" Lead air gun pellet at 600 ft/s will penetrate 4' plate glass. If Agent Doves bullet had entered Platts heart, he would have perished quickly, before launching his life-ending assault. It is often said in sports talk, that the game is a game of inches. This is also true in life and death gun battles like the FBI Miami shootout. This doesnt factor shot placement. Among other things, this makes it ineffective against body armor. A 9mm round fired at close range to the skull with the correct ammunition will be fatal nearly all the time. #firearmtraining. The latest testing shows that modern 9mm performs pretty much as well as the other common semi-auto options, and since it carries more rounds and is easier to shoot (and I dont care who you are, but it is easier/faster to shoot compared to the larger calibers), it is fairly sound logic to select the 9mm. You cannot make a man by standing a sheep on its hind legs. Anyway, stay tuned we shall wait and see. Also ALL handgun calibers are susceptible to ricochet especially when compared to rifle rounds. The sheriff convinced the county to issue all the deputies glock 9mms to standardize the weapons and ammunition within the department. Owned a model 29 .357 Due to the heavy load some people with both types of weapons had malfunctions as the slide was moving too fast causing failure to feed. .45 acp is a good round and I prefer it used in close quarter environments becuse it is heavier and pack more energy. 2 from 15 ft, 2 from 25 ft, jumping to 2 from 50 ft. And 2 from 100ft. As long as YOU are comfortable with the choice, then Im happy for you! SEMPER FI. The 45 acp caused significant damage to the human body. I trap and shoot most animals with a Browning 1911-22 now. I have owned all of the above calibers plus.In S&W, Glock, Sig.CZ,Remington,Beretta.I have taken bob cats,coyotes Jack rabbits Badger with all. Missing it not an option. at 2,690 feet per second, and slows to 840 feet per second at 500 yards. Its too small. Sadly, most government decisions like this are primarily based on cost effectiveness, not cartridge performance or effectiveness; thats the main reason I quit using military or LE decisions as a factor in my own carry decisions. I also reload/handload have shot competitively and have hunted all my life. Physiologically, a highly motivated target can only be destroyed by hitting the brain or the upper spinal column. As mentioned in the article, the terminal ballistics of the modern 9mm is virtually the same as the .40S&W or the older .45ACP round but that is with modern 9mm JHP ammo. For those not in the military, go for what you want. Which is better? 9mm Federal 150 grain Micro HST or Winchester 147 grain Ranger will expand 0.7", better than at least half the .45 defensive rounds out there (most common expansion is about 0.6", which is the same as many modern 9mm defense rounds), but there are also some.45 Nobody I know whos had to use issue 9mm M882 Ball is terribly impressed with it, either for the way it penetrated light cover like auto bodiesadmittedly, if you are shooting at someone protected by an automobile chassis, you should have brought a rifle, if not a grenade launcher with HEAT rounds or something belt-fed with the black-tip ammo that have the depleted uranium coresor for the way bad people reacted to being shot with it, which was usually not at all for quite some time barring a hit to the brain or spinal cord, or multiple hits, as in the whole magazine and maybe another. It has never failed me and conceals extremely well. However, in a self-defense situation, the object isnt to kill your attacker; its to end their ability to cause you harm as quickly as possible. The temporary cavity is the hole in the target that briefly expands after immediate impact, only to collapse a fraction of a second later. I find the heavy slide helps with the .40 recoil and keeps the barrel from jumping. Whats more, for those who are considering purchasing a firearm for home defense, but have not yet done so, it is important to know what kind of firearm is appropriate for your needs. The 9 has more A but the M of the 45 has more than enough to overtake the 9 even the newer ones. American troops in the Philippines discovered this important distinction in the late 19th century. Long time reloader right here as well which is why I couldnt believe when I read what I did in that other articleclearly someone that doesnt understand how these things work!! The money has to come from somewhere. Lee reloading gear. 9mm Luger now offers select projectiles that are, under identical testing conditions, outperforming most premium line .40 S&W and .45 Auto projectiles tested by the FBI. It stood there looking at me. We need to dial back our expectations of how effective a pistol is, regardless of caliber, barring brain or spine shots. During a dynamic gun battle with erratic movement by both officer and adversary, this requires extraordinary marksmanship or, more likely, pure luck. Every round has its purpose. It's estimated that chronic kidney disease affects about one in seven American adults. Rounds that do not hit the intended target are obviously more dangerous to bystanders than a round that hits the target. The larger a projectiles surface area, the greater its ability to transfer its energy to the target, instead of simply penetrating straight through. If you have been hit with any kind of bullet large, fast, expanding, or otherwise please fill out our survey about your experience after being shot. Steel BB or 0.177" lead pellet at 200 ft/s will detach part of the coloured portion (iris) of a human eye leaving what appears to be a second pupil. 158 gr 0.38" Special plain lead bullet will generally not penetrate the outside skin of a car body. And while you might think that lethality by caliber is the main factor you should be looking for, the simple fact is that while a 22 rimfire is deadly, it is far from the best round for incapacitating an assailant in the here and now. Last summer had a large male black bear tried to enter my camper. Now marine I hope your watching now instead of using glock 19 in a 9mm counterpart here is a better suggestion why dont you use a glock 21 4th gene to insure ur fellow colleges a better a faster on the spot accuracy with zero recoil it will enable them to be more successful in hitting targets. There were 5 gunshots to his chest. If one of these conditions occurs, the human body should induce a counterbalance in the form of an opposite condition. To me the rest dont count. My point being, is animals dont always die the same. It makes a bigger hole. Such as my Kimber and Walther and can never forget the CZ shadow 2. If a projectile has features that would cause it to expand upon impact, U.S. Army engineers Donald Carlucci and Sidney Jacobson explained in the textbook Ballistics: Theory and Design of Guns and Ammunition, it will cause greater trauma.. In fact you are 1000 rounds short. The pool of cartridges in the study are grouped which makes the data integrity less reliable but each group of larger calibers exhibit significant percentage better lethality. Even the Scout Snipers are still using the .308, whereas superior platforms are using .300 Win Mags and .338 Lapuas. A true warriors gun. Open carry is fine where Im at. Some of the best handgun calibers for self defense are: To adequately understand the efficiency of incapacitating a target, we must have some basic understanding of the mechanics of wounding how damage to the human body works. While, I understand that budgetary issues are a factor they should not come before the safety of the officer pr soldier. For me the argument is how the pistol or revolver feels in my hand and how accurately can shoot it. Four ribs had essentially turned to dust. Now lets talk about wound cavities caused by different caliber handgun rounds. But the modern bullets are getting better all the time! Now I am a fan of 45s. Thats good, it is always good for people to find what works best for them. Plus, this decision saves the military a substantial amount of money as Glocks are cheap, and the 9mm ammo is also very affordable and, perhaps more importantly, readily available. The comments concerning shot placement are correct. Its probably just psychological, but real evidence that the .45 is more effective. Ultimately, your selection of a caliber should be based first on the penetration, and second on the unexpanded size of the round. But the major difference is that you would have been 2 rounds away from having to reload as compared to 6 rounds in the case of a Glock 17. The gunman was able to inflict such extensive damage from across a baseball field because he was using a semiautomatic rifle that may have qualified as an assault weapon, akin to a standard infantry combat weapon. What will each round acco. While the classic .45 ACP round is large, its also relatively slow, with an average velocity of 850-900 FPS for most types of ammo. The best I heard about itcirca Desert Shieldwas that at least the guns werent beaten completely to death, badly maintained by armorers who were phoning it in, and handed out off the rack with worn-out springs and safety levers falling out, like the M1911s had been ever since after Korea. I would make the same recommendation to all American law enforcement agencies who are considering a switch to 9mm handguns. The programs, policies, and people driving positive change in Americas gun violence problem. Then you missed. Also, I have pretty much explained what you have just said. A .20 gauge double barrel should be good for home defense day for a woman or a guy. The absolute best thing that anybody can do, find a pistol that suits you that you like, get a high capacity round, and train yourself in situational awareness so you dont have to worry about shooting somebody on accident. 3, both hemolymph ACP and AKP activities of P. clarkii were significantly decreased in the 30 and 50 mg/L groups compared to the control (P < 0.01).Similarly, PO activity also exhibited a significant reduction in the 30 mg/L group (P < 0.05) and the 50 mg/L group (P < 0.01), respectively.However, LZM activity showed a significant increase Trailing was easy in snow, but took nearly a mile to put down with another shot low through the heart. I am not aware of any hollowpoints that were designed to expand on the way to the target. Tests show that while it travels at 1,154 feet per second at 500 yards, slower than the .223 at that distance, the AKs bullet can deliver 370 foot-pounds of force, more than the AR. People like the OP of the TIFU have been shot right above their heart and lungs, with .223 and despite a nasty, nasty exit wound and the shot placement, walked it off. It also drops in Air Drops, rarely as Tier Chest loot, or very rarely spawn as Tier World loot. Now Im not a scientist, and comparisons of expanded 9mm, .40 S&W, and .45 ACP projectiles shows what appears to be little or insignificant difference in diameter; so I cant explain the results perhaps bullet weight plays a role too. Also, I question how much influence the logistics command had over this conclusion. But for those of us that like to aim and make good hits Ill take the 45 as a primary with a compact 9 as a backup. The only way to ensure immediate incapacitation is to shoot the adversary in the brain or upper spinal cord (i.e., central nervous system). A. H. Hassall, The microscopic anatomy of the human body Wellcome L0024128.jpg 1,100 1,796; 960 KB. All rights reserved. I shot Master for a while. And since the FBI was the agency who failed in the first place well, why follow thier blind lead? His career began as a special agent with NCIS. Take this for what its worth. The Krag was a failure for two reasons. Rifle rounds have an elongated, oblong shape and so they often tumble. Lexipol. SS and Homeland couldnt be to aly wrong!!! However, caliber is at least as important and should not be ignored when choosing a weapon. Any weapon is only as good as its owner, making the person behind the trigger the single greatest factor in how much stopping power a gun ultimately yields. What you provide is false true and true. At The Trace, we examine what happens after bullets are sold, shot, and wound human beings. An entrance wound is surrounded by a reddish-brown area of abraded skin, known as the abrasion ring, and small amounts of blood escape through. I have small hands for a guy but I have no problems with accuracy. The military is basing their decisions on dollars not dependability not the servicemans life! When i was in the military in the 60s we still were using hard ball ammo and the same still applied. It turns out, however, that things arent that simple. Ive got a good deal of ballistic and aeronautical knowledge under my belt, and I agree in flight friction coefficient is not something that plays a significant enough role in comparative analysis of 9mm and 45 Auto at practical ranges. Also, do you love this debate on the various handgun calibers? Being only 30 the 9mm argument was often a argument and war waged by my generation of officer. Wounding one enemy combatant to take three out of the fight (or at least two) was a good argument when we were facing civilized enemies such as the Germans in WW II. My department switched to +p for 45s. The only other way to end an adversarys life-threatening action is through circulatory collapse. Its only popular because of the name brand, not the true performance against other guns. Then get ready for a gunfight. Sorry for the lengthy comment just my humble opinion. The fact is you will rarely ever have perfect conditions to take the well-placed shot. All rights reserved. Your shot placement will be perfect. If you can fire without remorse. .45 ACP 10 Round Magazine mobility debuff removed, and .45 ACP 17 Round Magazine mobility increased from 96% to 98%. Now its true that most of those victims wounds ultimately proved fatal; but its also true that they were far from incapacitated and either did or could have returned fire if they were also armed. I can load my rounds as hot as I want, and often do. Damage: 22 per pellet. In the last 30 years, the FBI has moved from .38/.357 caliber revolvers to 9mm semi-automatics. Thats the secret. By the way. I also own both my fathers series 70 .45 (very accurate, low recoil due to mass, gunsmith tuned trigger that feels like butter, and extra fat grips) And a Kahr K40 (small, easy to conceal, but has a HORRENDOUS trigger pull and snappy recoil). I know they dont keep records like this; but if you could count all the rounds fired in a battle, and how many kills were made by each caliber; would that not be a better indicator of the efficiency of the caliber. Media in category "Human body" The following 64 files are in this category, out of 64 total. At that long distance, the .223 will slam into its target with almost twice the speed of the .22. 10mm. Sources say Jimmy Lam used a TEC-9 style pistol, illegal to sell in the state for almost two decades. In a military that accepts all genders and has lowered its physical fitness standards, Its not surprising that the 9mm was selected. Gramins was using a 13+1 capacity Glock 21 in .45 ACP. Scratch expensive 45s. Sad. Its all about follow up shots. Any gun between 9 mil and .45 caliber is fine if you can conceal it, and employ it quickly and with reasonable accuracy. Not to kill but enough to let us get to our guys or a firearms. But this cartridge uses a half-grain bullet compared to 9mm. The Marine Corps Times is not published by the Marine Corps. The expansive quality of these rounds creates larger permanent cavities. Hmmmmsince there probably wont be any takers how about we all shake hands and realize were all bound brothers with the same interest. Episode 424 is the perfect companion to this post because we discuss caliber and it's relation to hit factor! Whether fear or anger, adrenaline can make one shake. He is the author of two published books on deadly force and an upcoming book on supervisory and municipal liability in law enforcement. The flesh can tear and cells can burst as the tissue erupts outward and then slams back. The 45 1911 did just that. I can shoot consistently accurately. Circulatory collapse results from massive bleeding caused by bullet wounds primarily to the heart, other major organs or major blood vessels of the torso. knows the sound of a 9m they may say o well Ill chance it but a 40 cal. That said a handgun is only used to get to a bigger firearm..it was never ment to be used in longer than 30 meter engagements. Ive shot so many different weapons, started at the age of 11, hunted most of my life. Train, train train and when your done. F=MA always applies to the known laws of physics. Because bullet strikes to the torso will not immediately incapacitate an adversary and will not knock him to the ground, police officers need to use bullets that will neutralize an adversary as quickly as possible. The bear was shot in the head through the screen.it was a one shot stop but needed another round to finish him off. The penetration of various materials can be of great assistance in the investigation of shooting incidents. Penetration, velocity, expansion, its all there. The .45 acp bounced off the helmet at 35 yards while the 9mm penetrated the helmet at an astonishing 125 yards proving that the 9mm with its higher velocity, flatter To make a long govt document short, the armor would likely stop a 9mm with a few bruises. ), and I can buy twice the ammo and get twice the practice. Nothing beats a 12 guage with 100 rounds of 00 and slugs. LE, south LA and Watts for 8 1/2 out of 15 years. The 45 hit harder and put your target down more quickly than the 9 mm. But I have some serious doubts about his understanding of external and terminal ballistics. I am just way more comfortable with the way it shoots. The paramedics said he probably would not live. A bullet entering an enemys body does damage in two ways. 7.62 isn't pistol ammunition though. I carry a 9 as one of my CCW, a Sig P938. More rounds the better. 9mm beats .45acp. What makes the .223 potentially deadlier than the .22 is its velocity. We argued more capacity modern rounds ect ect. I have been shooting for 50 years now. I am not going to address the whole military, spec-ops, battlefield blah blah. I leave distinguishing the difference for law enforcement and military.In the moment of truth youre either going to hit properly or not. For almost 17 years that I carred a badge I carried a S&W 357 on a K frame. As I have read your comments and, also read many debates including what science says. In this dangerous time period, an officers adversary can continue his deadly actions against an officer. I carry a Glock 19 with 15+1 and am quite crafty with it. 2. All studies are greatly flawed and there is no serious pursuit of better studies due to the enormous difficulty, if not impossibility, of scientifically analyzing real-life shooting incidents. Lethality by Caliber: Whats the Best Handgun Caliber For You? Reality. On the other hand, a .22 that you can carry easily and put into operation quickly and shoot accurately is probably not a good defense gun/round because to do enough damage requires brain-shot accuracy with each shot. The U.S. military collected reports of its effects on the first Viet Cong combatants to be shot with the bullet. I read a study from an Army medic regarding one shot kills from a handgun. What I find more often than not is, in cases of 9mm shootings, unless its a head-shot or perfectly placed shot to the sternum, victims rarely drop where theyre shot and are often found blocks away from where the original shooting took place police actually have to trace blood droppings back to their origin to find the initial crime scene. Thats a problem, because the force that continues to propel the bullet has essentially been wasted, not transferred to the target. Going on 7 years Law Enforcement here with a rough Dept. Reality. Projectile weapons work by transferring kinetic energy to a target, which ripples out as a shockwave through tissue as the bullet plows through the body, leaving a cavity in its wake. I have most of the makers revolver & simi-auto, in most of the major calibers. Ricochet off. It's the most comprehensive and trusted online destination for law enforcement agencies and police departments worldwide. The original design and purpose of the 1911 45, was perfect for its knock down power. But with the way things are going today I decided it was time, so I just bought S&W M&P 9 Shield. Fire Rate: 240 rounds/minute. If I knew for certain I was going to use my gun Id pack the .45 all the time. But nearly worthless in real world situations. Tissue disruption caused by a handgun bullet is limited to two mechanisms: There are two places that we know will incapacitate a man every time they are hit: the brain and the upper spinal column. We have came a long ways with jackets, cores and construction of bullets in the last 50 + years. The saying The Quick And The Dead was true. WebWhen youre in the midst of dealing with an attack, the reduction in blood flow to your hands (along with the chemical changes in your body) will likely result in an increase in your pain threshold. Other human tissue in the body reacts differently. this was the part I couldn't wait to get to and dissect. It can also destroy your aim, and the strongest bullet on earth is useless if it doesnt hit the bad guy coming at you. Is it comfortable for you to carry and shoot and are you accurate and reasonably quick in getting it from concealment to shooting? The threshold for lung damage occurs at about 15 psi blast overpressure. The 45 is the preferred for close combat, Common sense will tell you that if you are being overrun! The idea that a bullet has the power to knock an adversary to the ground is a Hollywood myth. Only two factors are within your control: the location of the wound and the amount of tissue destroyed. They said, ja, the 9mm kills people just fine, as long as you use it the way anyone with any sense uses a pistol caliber. According to mamas statement, Papa got crazy and chased her into the bath room. But the guy kept on coming. Hollow point bullets are superior to round-nosed ones. If knock down power is desired forget the 45 and get a 44 mag or get a 375 they kill most anything one shot. They should have several different handguns depending on the shoot I myself at 6 to 200 pounds and have a large chance by far the best pistol Ive ever shot is the 1911. As to which will stop a human fasterhavent a darn clue. I know I prefer .45ACP. We had competant and caring armorers and shooting instructors ( These guys gave a fuck and went out of their way for you ). I checked him out, and he's legit as far as that title is concerned and where he works. You get the idea. Most rounds fired do not hit anyone at all. Think of hitting a person in the chest with a broom handle, then picture striking the same spot with a 5 lb. The guys that could handle the .45, all preferred it. A pellet traveling at 450 fps (feet per second) can cause serious injury or death to a human depending on the type of pellet and the location of the impact.